IAAF 2023: Accessibility Round Table with the Department of Veterans Affairs

Narrator

Annual Interagency Accessibility Forum. Day 3, Accessibility Round Table with the Department of Veterans Affairs.

Brooke Aiken

All right, so we are transitioning to another round table chat with the Veterans Administration.

So I will let Martha kick it off and welcome.

Martha Orr

Thank you very much. And good morning, everyone. Very happy to be back. How are you all doing? [Applause] Yay. Good. Yep. Yeah. Were all of you here yesterday for the other panel? Okay. For those of you who were, you'll remember my description of my festive fall outfit today, and I'm a little more somber. I'm still, you know, the same Martha Orr from the Department of Veterans Affairs, but today I have a more somber look with a black jacket, red blouse, and a faux suede skirt. So I'm glad you're all enjoying it.

I don't know about you, but when I heard that last panel describing all of their accomplishments and all of the things that are coming, I thought to myself, "Wow, we're going to be on the other end of this, trying to interpret and implement all of this in a department for us, anyway, of about 450,000 employees by now, not to mention contractors, volunteers, residents, we call them baby dogs, those sorts of things." So it's a big, daunting assignment, if you will. I'm certainly, I was very privileged this last year to really learn about this area, about accessibility to meet the 508 compliance staff that moved into my organization a little over a year ago. I think we've made some great strides, and we're going to talk about that today.

But what I really would like is an interactive session with all of you in some fashion. You're working on accessibility, you're implementing the concepts, you're having to deal with the same thing we are in terms of awareness, in terms of training. Oh, by the way, the enforcement—I loved the idea of weaving some enforcement themes into our awareness campaigns as well. Because I often think that people don't really understand. They understand you can put out policy and policy memos and guidance documents and guidance, but what happens if they just aren't implemented? I really would like to weave that into our awareness campaign as well, so people understand there are consequences. There can be consequences for not adhering to this.

And it's been a long time, and we still aren't 100% compliant in our own agency, and we're working really hard to take the steps and make the plans to do so. So we have a panel of experts here today. We have people that have worked in this area for a very long time. And so that's why I'm excited to hear from you, to hear your questions, to hear your challenges, and get maybe some advice. And we'd like to vice versa, like to hear some things that maybe have worked for you that we can implement as well. So I really, as I said, I want this to be as interactive as possible. I will look for hands. There are no silly questions. Don't they all say that? Right? Oh, there's no silly questions. They're really, not in this room, what is said at the FDIC stays at the FDIC.

So, I'd like to think that we really take the accessibility topic very, very seriously. We've made, as I said, some great strides over the last year. We're looking at all aspects, to us, it's not a checklist. You've heard a lot of this morning, so I don't think and I mean yesterday, by the way, so it doesn't really need to be repeated too much other than to say, that we are talking about, in my mind, about usability, especially in the Office of Information and Technology. We put out a lot of technology systems, software applications, those types of things, and they really have to be used. And I have seen and we have reconsidered implementation of products that are not usable. They just cannot be used by our entire employee or veteran base.

Training and awareness—we've been doing a lot of outreach this past year as well. Talking about this topic, making sure people are aware of what the requirements are, but also what are the, you know, what does it matter? Why does it matter? We're trying to go in that direction as well, to talk about the human element that's in all of this. So we've redesigned our websites. I think we're doing fairly well on new things that we're putting out. We have a great deal of emphasis on making sure that is able to be used by folks. But we have a, we have an inventory of something like 6 or 700 systems that we are going back. We're doing testing, we're doing auditing, and we're trying to make some corrective actions and are really going to focus on remediation over the next year as well.

So what we want is that everything that we put out for veterans, for the public, for our employees, is usable by everyone. And so that's where we're headed. So with that, I'd like to introduce our panel. There's no question that's too hard. If it's really, really, really hard, I've been told I must give it to our first panelist, Mr. Pat Sheehan. I don't know, I'm sure a lot of you know, or have interacted with Pat. Pat's been at the VA longer than I have, which is 34 years. Pat and I first met when I started at the VA in 1990. I worked in information technology as a training instructor of software, at the time. Pat was also doing training on adaptive technology, and he, on a flight home from a conference that we both attended in Austin, Texas, was plying me with wine. Seriously. The stewardess came up after I sat down and said, brought me a glass of wine and said, "This is compliments of Mr. Pat Sheehan."

So Pat, thank you so much. So Pat’s our first panelist. We next have Merissa Larson. Merissa is the executive director for risk and remediation, and the 508 program lies within her portfolio. Merissa has been in the executive director position for about three years. Prior to that, she was in financial management. And prior to that, DoD. So welcome Merissa and then Chet Frith. As many of you may know, Chet is a co-sponsor of this program. And he's been working very hard and not sleeping all week just to make sure that he's bringing you the best program possible.

Both Pat and Chet are actually, have taken, a time acting in our 508 director position. It is currently vacant, and we have been recruiting for a full-time person. So I want to thank Pat, Chet, and Merissa for your leadership in this area. So I'm going to set the stage with a couple of questions to start us all off. But I will be watching eagerly in anticipation of your questions and comments. So let's go ahead and start with... Oh, I do need to tell you, they gave me questions to ask them, and I changed them all last night.

Patrick Sheehan

That works.

Martha Orr

Yeah. That works say I loved it. I may just make them up, right?

Right off the top of my head.

Chet Frith

I'm sweating. By the way.

Martha Orr

Okay, so I'm going to ask you this question, Pat, because you've been with the organization for so long. You know, we realigned the 508 compliance office about a year ago, and we had a complete realignment in the Office of Information and Technology in the VA. And one of the things, part of that realignment was moving Pat's group over to Compliance Risk and Remediation, which is our group.

So, we believe this provided some transparency, Pat, and removed any conflict from having the 508 program office, you know, you know, the actual program office with the software development teams. We actually moved it out of that part of the organization because it was part and parcel of our software development area, and we had additionally created the Office of Remediation. So I'm wondering, what, how do you feel it's been going? What are the key things that you can say that you've taken away this past year? Has it worked? Is it is it not as good as it was? Tell me a little bit more about how you feel about the alignment of the 508 office.

Patrick Sheehan

So, my boss is asking me if it worked, so I think the answer to that is yes, but I would say that we've grown an awful lot in the last year. I think, first of all, we have more of an enterprise reach within the organization. We're not just a software compliance group. We're also dealing with enterprise risk. We’re dealing with testing.

So, we have an IBNB organization that we can rely on. We have a risk organization that we can rely on. There are so many synergies within the office that help us do our job better. And so, we've learned to rely on those offices. We've moved our intranet over to SharePoint, and we have a group within CRR that's helping with that.

So, there are lots of reasons why this works, but I think the overall reason is that we're now in the area of governance and conformance. And so, people know we're more than just working in the software area. That was a few things that we were lacking last year or in the years past. We didn't have a real good governance and accountability framework. We didn't have access to those committees that could make those things happen.

And now, under Martha and Merissa's guidance, we're able to not only test and validate, but we're able to also report up in the area of governance and accountability and work within the acquisition shops to make sure that everything that we're doing hits all of those points. We don't have to run around and look for those organizations within our, you know, within the software group that we had before. And they all sit within Compliance, Risk, and Remediation.

And so, that makes our job a lot easier because we can rely on the experts, and we don't have to recreate the wheel in our little shop.

Martha Orr

Okay.

Thank you. Pat, I'm looking for hands.

If anyone has a follow on question, don't be shy.

Patrick Sheehan

Here's your chance to get me back.

For all the years that I've been bugging all of you.

So don't make it easy on me.

Martha Orr

Yes, question to the.

Assistant

I'm coming with the mic. Thank you.

Jonathan

Hi, this is Jonathan from Department of Labor.

And, my question to follow up with, you know, I love the centralized structure.

Does that have you also looked at in this, centralizing resources for employees working on all flavors of 508 topics?

Patrick Sheehan

You're asking about centralized resources.

Jonathan

Yeah.

So, for example, you know, central library, code libraries.

Patrick Sheehan

Yes.

Centralized resources also in the fact that you're going to be testing the same way, auditing the same way, and so that your individuals can speak to each other. The other area that we have worked hard in is getting our documents within a conformance area that the entire federal agency can use.

And so, we're able to consolidate a lot of the individual's test procedures, the data that we have, and that's another area that I neglected to mention before. We also are able to consolidate all of our data. We're looking to put a lot of our data systems, and change how we're reporting from, let's say, PowerPoints now to dashboards.

And that'll go to leadership so that the results that we're getting as far as metrics are concerned are reported out into a dashboard so that all the leadership and everyone within the auditing or, let's say, projects can take a look at our data and so that it's going to be transparent. So, I think that having all of that in one area where we are held as accountable, but we're also the group that everyone knows to go to, is really key. And that's what we're moving towards.

Marissa Larson

I would love to add a few things as well in terms of the realignment. Good morning. I'm Merissa Larson, and by way of introduction, I am a white female with short brown hair. I stand five foot one with my heels, and I am currently wearing a black and white dress. So, good morning.

And to Pat's point, a few other things that we have found to be extremely instrumental in this realignment for the 508 program into our office is the independence. So, it is an independent organization that is separate from, you know, the software and product development team. And so, that really allows us to have a very strong voice. A voice that is advocating for 508 and ensuring compliance and that we're, we are truly meeting the requirements of the law.

But it also gives us greater access. So, greater access to additional senior leadership, such as our CIO, for example. So, we meet on a monthly basis with our CIO to comb through all our websites, our top, you know, utilized systems, because he wants to know—I mean, he's deeply committed to our compliance—and really, reviewing, you know, how are our share points doing, how are our top utilized and leveraged applications, both for the veterans and also inside for our employees as well.

And so, having that access is huge for us in terms of the advocacy for our program. Chet and Pat had also mentioned governance. And so, one thing that we also have is a direct link and tie to the contracting process, FITARA process through governance, which is allowing us to try to get in front of the contracting process and reviewing, you know, new—I mean, systems that are coming up for renewal in their contracts and also ensuring that we have consistent language in our contracts as well as it relates to 508.

So, I think those are some of the, you know, additional positive aspects that we have seen along with an integrated team that we have developed that has representation not only from the Office of Information Technology and our 508 staff, but also key representatives across other administration, such as our Health administration benefits and the national cemeteries as well. And those partnerships are key. They're key to awareness. They're key to driving training as well. And those are some of the additional benefits that we've seen.

Chet Frith

All right. So we've actually made an impact in the last year. I'd be remiss if I didn't recognize, you know, team members that are here. So we have Zach in the back, Chrissy, Myra, and our other team member, Inc, on the floor licking his paw. So he was sleeping earlier, but, you know, again, without those, you know, the folks really stepping up and being asked a lot from them, we wouldn't be where we are today.

And I'd say we made a significant impact in the last year, really focusing on areas that we can improve upon when things are realized. I'm sure everyone in this room knows. Everyone in here knows what 508 is, right? We walk out in the street. If we mention 508, everybody's going to look at us like we're nuts, right? So that's one of the things that we've tried to do in this last year—really trying to get out there.

So, get out there. We had a roadshow, visited four VA facilities, we articles at every opportunity to really get out there, spread the word. What 508 is, provide training, but also get that feedback, right? That user feedback on how we can improve. We can sit in our offices all day long, you know, and think that we know what the answer is. But until we get out there and truly engage with our customers, we'll never know what they need.

So that's something that we've learned, getting out on the road and truly understanding what our customers are looking for from the 508 office. But that's really something I think is a huge impact that we've had in this last year to make a significant change in 508.

Martha Orr

Yeah, I would just underscore, especially on the governance piece, because our governance in OINT, which we manage, does tie up into the department's governance as well. There's strong governance activity across all of our administrations and staff offices, and we found that to be very helpful.

Even though we have a strong presence in OIT in 508, we do depend on our collaboration with Veterans Health Administration, Benefits Administration, National Cemetery, and our staff offices as well. So, in a sense, there's a nucleus of this activity going on for assessments, testing, auditing, policy guidance, and things like that. But we are dependent on the rest of the organization and VA because we are still in a somewhat decentralized environment where they are putting up their own websites, creating their own documents, and that sort of thing.

So that's why the awareness and the training is so crucial as well for us. Now, I'm a big fan of creativity. Sometimes you don't have enough resources, maybe, so you gotta think about creative ways to do things. And Merissa is the guru of creativity.

She doesn't know this question is coming. This is one I thought of last night. But Merissa, just talk a little bit about some of the ways that we have creatively looked at challenges and come to some solutions.

Marissa Larson

Yeah. This is a great question. Thank you.

So one thing that I'm super excited about

in terms of a recent challenge that we've had

and that we're actually going to be conducting later next week

is our first ever accessibility stand down day.

And so we came up with this idea, because we have a great need to conduct assessments

on our websites, our applications, on our SharePoints.

but we do not have enough hands to do that.

And so we have a call to action

to our staff within our office.

Martha actually volunteered, which is fantastic.

And I think that goes back to having dedicated leadership

who are really passionate about this space

and who are willing to roll up their sleeves

and actually be part of that process

and be part of the learning so that they can further advocate

for 508, but really what we're doing

is we're conducting, lunch and learn trainings.

all next week for, our volunteers.

and then on Friday, we're actually going to be all coming together.

I think we have over 30 volunteers in our office who have, you know, registered and signed up.

But we are going to be spending a day together

doing nothing but assessing. So that we can understand

and identify where are the defects? Where are the issues?

because that's kind of step one in terms of understanding

what our environment is the assessment piece.

And then we can start to get after, some of the remediation.

another really great thing that we are excited about.

And I'll have Chet talk about this is we I think we made

a really great splash this year in recognizing and honoring, Disability Awareness Week and we brought in some really neat

and different features and activities during that time.

So Chet?

Chet Frith

Sure. So we held Disability Awareness Week last month. It initially started out with the White Cane event. Right? So everyone goes to October 15th, but this year that happened to fall on a Sunday. So on Monday, we basically had different disabilities throughout the week. Vision awareness was on Monday, hearing awareness on Tuesday, and then cognitive awareness on Wednesday.

What we did on Monday is we had the American Council of the Blind, the National Federation of the Blind, and the Blind Veterans Association all come in together as a group, along with our employees and veterans. They got together and showcased some of the things that they're offering. Right? But it's about building those relationships, not just within the federal government, but outside. Right? Without those advocates out there, we wouldn't be here today. So, and that's one of the things that I think we've done a great job of this last year—really reaching outside of the federal government to these disability advocacy groups. Right? And really pulling them into our sphere.

We had them come in and brief us. On Tuesday, we had hearing awareness. I invited the National Association of the Deaf. Then on Wednesday, we had cognitive awareness, where a VA employee volunteered to basically go through his story and where he's come from. On Thursday, if you've been here in DC, you know the DC Farmer's Market by the White House. They shut down Vermont Avenue, which happens to be in front of the VA headquarters. So we got a tent, we actually put together a tent, and we had different technologies out there—Braille displays, keyboards, and I think some of the equipment that was out there yesterday, some of the things that we had and used. But we were able to showcase what the VA has and what our 508 office is doing.

We had over 150 folks across the VA and even some from out in the community come in and really learn about what 508 is, and what it cost us. Really nothing. Right? I mean, it's a farmer's market. We set up a tent. We weren't selling anything, so they didn't charge us. So, just taking advantage of opportunities that are out there to get the word out and spread it.

And, again, I echo Martha's sentiment that Merissa is the queen of creativity because she is. But these are just ideas and suggestions that anyone can take back to their organization. I think earlier this year, we set up a table inside the lobby of VA headquarters, and the secretary came down, right? Because he walks by it every morning. So it's like, "Hey, we're here." But again, it's one of those where we're able to get the word out, and there's nobody in this room that can say they can't do that. Right? Just sit with the right people at your agency and say, "Hey, I want to set up a table and showcase what we do in the 508 world."

But I think we've really taken advantage of that at the VA to spread the word, spread awareness. And guess what? From those events, folks are emailing us, "Hey, I've got this document, this 1,300-page document on how to, you know, do physical therapy, and I want to make it accessible." Okay, great. Yeah, tomorrow. We need that tomorrow. So, I see Myra out there rolling her eyes, our document expert, but it's one of those where I think the word is spreading, almost to the point where we're having difficulty keeping up, which is good in the 508 world because that means folks are hearing about us. The word's getting out.

But it's only going to help us obtain more resources because we are showing the demand is out there. We are showing the need. We're able to articulate effectively. Folks are meeting us and understanding what we do. Leadership sees what we do. So, again, it's one of those things that I think we’re doing well in the 508 world—getting the word out and really using these avenues that just take ideas, and everyone has them at their agencies. Right?

And I’m not going to fault Brooke here, but I can see different areas here at the FDIC that I would totally take advantage of. You know, like, "Hey, coffee's a dollar." I would say, "Hey, first 20 people get free coffee." You know? But there are different opportunities that you can have at different agencies. So definitely, I think there are ways that each one of us in this room can take advantage of creativity and getting the word out.

Patrick Sheehan

And of course, Chet took credit for the beautiful 70-degree day on Disability Awareness Day. He said that with all his doing, he was so glad it didn't rain that day.

The other thing that I would just add to this too is, you know, using some of our tools, particularly our scanning tool. We've been able to take that tool and send it out to other users within the organization. A few years ago, when we were doing scanning on the web, we were the only ones in the office doing it. So it was used by like 20 people. Now we have over 500 people using that same tool, and they're able to scan and fix, and scan and fix, and scan and fix on a weekly basis, as opposed to what we were doing before. So that's helping to spread our resources also. And so we try to get tools and people engaged like that. And now that we've got senior leadership, which is key, we're able to get the tools out to people, and we're making a greater difference in a short amount of time.

Martha Orr

Thank you guys.

That was a great response.

And if you all out there have any comments or things you'd like to share or questions that you'd like to ask, please.

Assistant

Yeah. Yes, there is one.

I have a question from the chat.

Martha Orr

Okay.

Assistant

Like many attending IAAF, I am a 2210 and heard that VA is using the special salary rate to pay 2210’s a little more.

The special salary rate is new, but is it already helping the VA recruit section 508 talents.

Specifically?

Martha Orr

Well, first, true we do did get authority through the Pact act for now actually, to provide a special salary rate to all 2210’s and that has been implemented across the department.

Obviously, I think it's going to help, recruiting in that area to get the IT specialist talent that we need.

And we do hire, 2210 IT specialists in the 508 office as well.

I don't know if any of, the rest of you would like to share a comment on that.

Patrick Sheehan

As a 2210

I was very happy to get that rate.

Self-serving, I'm sorry.

Chet Frith

As a 343, I'm jealous.

Patrick Sheehan

I would say that, you know, getting the talent in-house is key.

as I said earlier, having the right technology to do the work is important, but it's really all about the people.

It's about the people in the office.

It's making sure that they have the right tools to do their work.

We absolutely want the best in the federal government in VA.

And so we do what we can to bring them in.

And I think, certainly think, you know, the certifications are out there, which is important, making sure that we get the right people that are good fits in the office and bringing that energy and enthusiasm to get the work done.

I would say the VA has a great mission.

Really our we're working for the veteran.

And in our shop we work for the disabled veteran.

And I don't think you can get a better mission than doing that and trying to level the playing field for people who've given us so much, we want to make sure that we give them 100%.

And so if we can bring the best team into the VA, that's what we'll do.

Marissa Larson

So I'll just, caveat off of that too, we’ll compete against GSA.

We have vacancies and we are recruiting.

So please be on the lookout.

Martha Orr

We have a question back in the corner.

Bill Edwards

Hello, Bill Edwards

I've worked with OIT for several years now, and I want to call out two of your 508 people, by the way, that would be Samir and Becca Hoag, who are great ambassadors and very helpful, especially with the AMP tool that you were talking about.

Now, I worked on VA PARS for several years, which is internal, and did all the 505 on that.

But now for the past year and a half, I've been on and it's getting a big new roll out tomorrow, Veterans Legacy Memorial.

The difference is when, we are inside the agency, we already know who we're dealing with.

In many cases, they actually talk to us.

But now VLM, I think is one of the biggest public facing apps on the Veterans Administration since it has to do with the cemetery administration as well.

How do you collect or are you collecting demographics, metrics of some kind so we know who we are serving and how we can do it better, and is there a way for them, or should we build in bake in a way for them to get back to us?

Thank you.

Martha Orr

Well, first off, let me thank you for the work that you do for VA and for veterans and for your, commitment to 508 compliance.

That's really, really important to everyone in the VA and in the government and veterans as well.

I'll ask our panel members if they have any thoughts on the demographics question.

Marissa Larson

Yeah. Thank you. That's a really great question.

So we do partner with the Veterans Experience Office in terms of trying to really understand, those population demographics, because they are constantly changing as well and we're definitely seeing, you know, newer, younger vets, coming in to and needing services from the VA that have disabilities and different disabilities, as well.

And so we want to make sure that we're taking all of that into consideration.

but in terms of, you know, kind of answering your question in a different way, we also have, you know, end users, that are veterans that are disabled, that are able and willing to test, you know, these software, solutions and applications as well so please let's connect, if that would be helpful because we do want to make sure especially any veteran facing application is 508 compliant.

Chet Frith

And just to add as well, going back to the Disability Awareness Week, while we were having those hour-long team meetings, one of the suggestions from one of the employees was, can we have a focus group for hearing-impaired employees?

And I thought that was a phenomenal suggestion because now I can separate and we can have focus groups if needed, right, to test particular software or devices.

So I thought that was a great suggestion coming from one of our own employees just attending one of our sessions. I love the idea. I think we're all on the stage, open to suggestions.

I'm one that loves trying stuff out, piloting things, and I think we're probably even more so than I am. But I love trying new ideas out. We'll never know if it works or doesn't work if we don't try it.

So I think there are some great ideas out there on how to improve on how to make 508 better and how to make our program better at the VA.

So thank you again for, you know, just to reiterate what Martha said, thank you for your assistance in making sure that our programs are 508 compliant.

Patrick Sheehan

And the only other thing that I would add to that is we have, at the bottom of each one of the websites, an accessibility statement and the ability to get in touch with us through ServiceNow, let's say, from inside, and that accessibility statement on the outside.

So if there are issues that come up, then we can address those issues.

We also have been doing outreach for about 10 or 12 years now. We've been doing outreach with Blind Veterans Associates on an every-other-month basis. And so we've been getting a lot of feedback from them.

We are also working with our digital services team, and they have brought in veterans and the disability community in general to take a look at some of these applications that we're working on so that not only are they usable and accessible, but individuals can give us thoughts on how to improve them, too.

So are we perfect in the outreach and that we're doing right now? We could do better. And we will. We want to be able to reach out to the appropriate veterans' service organizations to be able to get that feedback that can improve what we're doing right now.

So, and of course, our office is always available. If you have any questions or issues regarding the applications that you're working on, I think within each one of the projects that we have, or as we would call them, portfolios, we have individuals dedicated from our office to work within your office, as you said, Mr. Zamir being one of them, to do a good job and try to bring your project so that it's going to be usable and accessible by the veterans that need to use it.

Marissa Larson

And one other thing I would love to add is, for this fiscal year, one of our initiatives is actually to deepen, some of our collaboration and partnerships

outside of the VA and one area that we're excited to explore, and if anyone's interested in exploring this with us, please find us, so that we can talk more.

But we really want to create private public partnerships with schools and universities, that have, populations that focus on disabilities.

so that one, we can leverage these smart new young kids that are working with new technologies.

but that are also going to be coming into the workforce.

and so that we can see if they would be interested in working with us being testers for us.

And again, sharing their new ideas too about technology because they're really on the tip of that new sphere for us.

Chet Frith

We have a question here in the front.

Louise

Hi. I'm Louise, I'm with the U.S. Digital Service, and I first want to just offer you the highest compliments. I know that for your recent launch of your native mobile app, or fairly recent, you prioritized accessibility from the beginning. And just, really, really, thank you so much.

My question is, building off of that app, I know we have a few colleagues there. Martha Wilkes in her Octa team, doing some great work in the space of working with veterans as they research and test, and even some opportunities for co-designing with veterans. Is there a way or do you already do this for the 508 compliance program to, when you're doing the testing and the grading, to incorporate it, how many people you're actually going to, how many veterans you're actually going to get feedback from?

And then I know they have a million ideas about what could be improved in terms of usability for them. Are you tracking in some way the impact of their generative ideas? Because that would be incredible. That's my question.

Marissa Larson

So thank you for that question. That's fantastic. And to answer that, so yes, we are bringing in individuals to, you know, assist us with that testing and the auditing as well. And we're documenting those numbers in terms of our audit reports, specifically.

But what we love to do and what we would love to get at is your second part of your question in terms of really being able to truly harness and share their recommendations, their ideas, and further share that with our product and development teams throughout our office. Because that is just critical to understand and to really embrace their experience.

That's something that our CIO has really challenged us to do, is to ensure that we always deliver a delightful customer experience. And so that's one area that we've been working on because we've struggled in the past with, you know, we'll conduct audits, we'll find and identify critical defects. And then workarounds are developed.

Well, workarounds do not mean that they're 508 compliant. Workarounds do not mean that it creates a delightful end-user experience. And so that's something that we're really trying to raise the awareness to and to drive that home within our organization.

Patrick Sheehan

The other thing I would add to this too, and we're going to push this over to Chet, is we've started out this past year with doing outreach and engagement. And I think we've learned an awful lot from the sites that we have visited. And I know in 2024 we've got a whole new set of sites that we want to visit.

In the 20 years that I had running this office, you know, I thought that we were doing a great job and that the problem lay with others that just weren't interested in 508. And I found out after going through some of these engagements this year in the field, particularly, is that everybody has a very important job to do, and we need to be able to engage the individuals in the field and learn from them as to what their issues are.

And so I know Chet and I went on a lot of these engagements together, and I know that we came back with a different set of expectations than we did before we started. And so it's a question of trying to bring individuals together, listening to what they have to say, and finding a way to get them started on looking at section 508.

So engaging with the field in our case is important. We have also engaged with the disability community outside of the VA to get their feedback on the same issues that you brought up. And we've also engaged, as I said, with the Blind Veterans Association, and we're looking at other veteran service organizations to engage with them so that they can take a look at websites, the mobile apps, and other applications, and become part of that process of testing, auditing, and giving us feedback, particularly in the area of usability.

That is something that is as critical. And I know this audience knows that you can make something totally accessible, but if it's not usable, then no one will use that application. There'll be frustration there.

Chet, did I do okay? What did I miss?

Chet Frith

No, absolutely.

And thank you everyone for keep asking questions.

As I heard Martha flip the page, which means she's going to her page of questions that I didn't know about.

So the more questions that you ask, the less likely Martha's going to get to that. So thank you.

Assistant

Well, great timing because our virtual chat has a couple questions here. So.

One practical challenge we have at my organization is most developers did not learn to code accessibly.

So they come to us and have to change their fundamental workflows.

Do you have any advice or tips on how to help dev workforce make the transition to writing accessible code and embrace rather than resisting it?

Chet Frith

So I think one of the things that we learned is we have what's called Tech Tuesdays, Talking Tech. We have these different venues where our developers can actually attend, and it's an hour, two hours long. But we found several, and really engaged with the Office of Chief Technology Officer and really gotten their team on board and talked about accessibility and building from the start.

And especially with when it comes to external companies, if you can tell them that it's going to cost less in the end to develop with accessibility in mind, their ears perk up because now money's involved. So if we can get on early and preach them, hey, look, we'll help you, right? We will tell you what's important and give us some of these products, you know, during the development cycle, we're there to help ensure that this is accessible. So that way in the end, you don't have to go back and rebuild.

And there are some programs out there that we know that they're going to have to go back to square one and rebuild because it was coded from the beginning wrong. So that's something that we know. And we are getting out there getting the word out. Meeting with these developers, meeting with the product lines, meeting with the product owners, and really explaining that, hey, look, the VA is not going to accept the product in the end and it's going to hold you accountable to fix it if it's not accessible.

So having that support from senior leadership and making sure that you have the contracting officers, making sure that everyone's on the same page, you know, and understanding that you aren't going to get paid if you provide us an inaccessible product. So that's something that we've really taken to heart. And I think folks are actually, especially on the vendor side, starting to listen to what we're saying. Bring us an accessible product and we'll purchase it. If you don't bring it, you're not going to get paid.

Patrick Sheehan

And following on Chet's line here so that Martha doesn't get too far down on page two. Having another glass of wine, I guess Martha is, you know, is, for us, a lot of it's about the people. In the back, we have Zach Battles, who has been great at not only being able to talk to and to developers about what the technical issues are, but also offering remediation. Pierce talked about that the other day at from Social Security. That's a critical talent. And that's why we work to keep our people.

Chrissie Weymouth is in the front here, and she has done the same thing in the e-learning side, so that you've got individuals that not only will work with developers, but they'll try to give them remediation tips on what the issues are, not just here's the issue, go figure it out and fix it yourself. And then, of course, we have another program that Myra Coffield has been doing for years and years. Bring your own document in which you've got frantic PDF content authors that are many times just frazzled, some in tears even because they just don't know how to fix the PDFs. And being able to work with them one-on-one, the relationships and going forward with that, and helping them to understand how to move forward, really is great.

I mean we've got great talent, but we also have to be able to educate and work with the people. And these people I've mentioned are some of the best. And then on the other, on the technology side, we have technology in place that can take a look at code before it's been executed and it'll indicate to developers in the test harness that your code here on 508 is not compliant and needs to be fixed. All of that before the code gets executed so that they can fix it the next day. So there's a lot of tricks like that, but I think you can't underestimate the human element here. It's critical.

Digital services team Martha Wilkes was highlighted a little bit ago, and that's part of what her team does. Also talk to the people. Figure out what are we doing as far as business-wise, how we're creating this website and what are we trying to achieve? And then working along with people and individuals to make that happen. And then testing that whole structure with individuals with disabilities, as was mentioned, also bringing veterans in to say, how does this app work? Are you happy with it? The app that you discussed went through that whole process and that is hugely valuable right now. And so we're following that pattern throughout the VA. It's people-intensive, but that's where this all starts because at the end of the day, it's really all about the people and trying to make them productive.

Lisa Wilcox

Hi, Lisa Wilcox from USDA. I'm a veteran and I use your VA app, and I have noticed a difference in the user experience in its services, so I thank you for your work. My question is kind of twofold. So when I'm hearing you talk about it sounds like you've had a culture change within the VA the past year. I want, I'm curious to hear your challenges and how you overcame it. And then the other part of that is, what can we do to engage and educate people at our agencies when a lot of our workforce is virtual and in many times distributed across the country? I love the great in-person ideas, but that's obviously a challenge when you're distributed.

Patrick Sheehan

Chet you want to talk about Ask 508.

Chet Frith

Yeah, so I'll touch it first. I know Merissa got a lot to say on this topic, but so on the we actually develop teams, right? Because a lot of our folks are virtual and employees, the VA, you know, coast to coast, there's medical facilities, so the VA is very spread out and especially in the virtual environment.

So we started a Teams channel called Ask the 508 Office. It initially started as a once-a-month event where folks could dial in and ask a question of the 508 office. But what we realized is folks in between the meetings were posting in that Teams channel with questions. So what we did is we said, okay, let's make this real-time.

All of our staff and the 508 team, everyone in this room that's in our office is on that channel. And I know Chris is on there every single day answering questions. But, you know, anyone from throughout the VA, whether it be a contractor or an employee, can go in there and ask a question. It can be something as simple as, “Hey, what is a shortcut for this in this application?”

And I think there are even suggestions like Microsoft Teams used to announce whenever someone's microphone was on or off. We meet monthly with Microsoft. But somebody had posted in chat that they wished that feature was brought back. So we were able to bring it back. I know Chris mentioned this on one of the calls with Microsoft, and it’s back now.

So those are some of the things that we are able to get direct feedback from employees and contractors to really get those questions answered. But I think it really has an impact, having an opportunity. Every time we go on the roadshow, I add those folks to that channel.

So I think we’re up to three or four hundred folks in that channel. But Merissa is on that channel too, so she tracks and makes sure that Pat and I are making sure that we answer these questions in a timely fashion. It is great.

It’s great to see that not only are our staff engaging, but I see other employees who have disabilities and use that software helping employees that are using the same software, even before our team gets to it sometimes. This is amazing.

It’s a one-stop shop where employees are helping other employees answer questions that we may not know the answer to, even though we’re the experts. But I love that venue. That one-stop venue inside Teams where folks engage at any time and get a response almost instantaneously. I love that opportunity, but I'll pass over to Merissa for more.

Marissa Larson

Yeah, that's great. Thanks, Chet. So I think in terms of your question about culture, we are just starting on this culture sea change here at the VA, in terms of really changing the minds and hearts across the organization about how we view 508 and that.

And again, I keep saying it starts with leadership. It really does. And so something that we have been really focused on is bringing our top executives together to have conversations, to show them, to conduct side-by-side audits.

So that they can see, they can feel what these applications and websites are like for our disabled community and really turn that decision over to them. Are you going to accept this for our employees and for the veterans as well?

And that's something that has been very successful. We have a long way to go, but I think we're really on the right path. Something else that we have been passionate about in terms of ratcheting up the awareness is we are forcing our vendors, and our vendors at the executive level, to meet with us.

So Adobe is a great example of that. You know, we've had a lot of forms throughout the VA that historically have not been able to be accessed by a lot of our disabled veterans. And a lot of that stems from some of the issues with Adobe forms and their PDFs.

Well, we have been working for years with Adobe on this. And so it was time to get the executives in a room and have hard conversations about time frames of when these issues and defects would get fixed to benefit our veteran community.

And that can be challenging at times to have those tough discussions. But it's about doing the hard right thing at times. And so that's really the space that we are trying to really navigate.

And again, Martha is very passionate about this and so she helps to, you know, she's probably, what, 5'2"? 5'3"?

Martha Orr

5’4.

Marissa Larson

Excuse me

But she is banging down doors, you know, to get us access to the right folks that we need to be talking to and sharing.

You know, these concerns and these issues with and to me, that's what it really takes.

It takes senior leadership engagement.

Martha Orr

And I want to be very cognizant of time.

And I know we're getting very close to lunch.

And the group has successfully evaded and avoided all of my questions.

So that means it's time for.

What's that?

Okay, it's time for the lightning round.

Chet Frith

Uh Oh, I think we have one more question Martha.

I really think we did.

Patrick Sheehan

Yeah, I see questions in the back. No.

Martha Orr

Okay.

Lightning round, you have 30 seconds each.

Okay. Ready?

Pat, Are you ready?

Oh, never. Go ahead.

My question is, if there is one thing that you would like to see the VA accomplish in FY 24, in terms of accessibility, what would it be?

Pat you're up first? 30 seconds.

SharePoint. SharePoint.

We have a long way to go.

A lot of work, and we've got the tools and people to make it happen.

Yeah.

Martha Orr

Merissa?

Merissa Larson

Spreading additional education and awareness throughout the entire organization.

Chet Frith

And I would say resources in order to build our office to ensure that we have engine testing.

I see Chrissy raising her hands in support because I know she's one deep. So is Myra.

But resources to really expand and the services that we provide within 508.

Martha Orr

Okay.

So we will be back in a year at the next conference to let you know if we accomplished our goals.

Thank you all very much. Appreciate it. [Applause]

Narrator

This now concludes this conversation for the annual Interagency Accessibility Forum.